24 comments

  • askonomm 2 hours ago
    Any move away from the abusive big tech that exists in USA is a good move in my book. Microsoft just recently made a new patent where they will monitor you via camera and microphone to block your program/game to show you ads, and per ads viewed, you then earn credit to be able to use your program/game. It is absolutely wild to me how a corporation can be so toxic and abusive to its users and still be in business.
    • Thanemate 2 hours ago
      > It is absolutely wild to me how a corporation can be so toxic and abusive to its users and still be in business.

      It's easy: The choice was made from someone else, and you just accepted it as normal. Hardware vendors shipping PC's with Windows 11, corporations who went all in to Microsoft's tooling shove Microsoft Teams down your throat because "the company uses it", and the list goes on.

      • jacquesm 1 hour ago
        I refuse to use 'teams', it's a pile of garbage and spyware to boot.
        • not-my-team 1 hour ago
          I recently found out that several researchers, departments... buy a personal subscription for zoom (out of the own project money) even as our university as a MS Teams subscription. Despite if it is effectively "free" for them, they do not use it. So much on public money spend wisely and the quality of the MS Teams software...
          • jwrallie 5 minutes ago
            Can confirm, my boss has his own paid Zoom while I’m using Teams to save research money. Another assistant professor I know pay for Slack ad well.

            I think Teams improved and Zoom regressed in the last 3-4 years to the point the garbage level is not that different nowadays. Most of the annoyance is related to finding your way in a different interface.

            Avoiding Office 365 is so annoying due to everyone in academia using it that I’m using macOS instead of Linux at work just to interface with others better. I got used to it but I need Linux as soon as I’m home, I feel observed and vulnerable otherwise.

          • PunchyHamster 1 hour ago
            a lot of companies migrated to teams purely because it was already included in the subscription, IIRC they were forced to take it out by EU in 2023 for being anti-competitive.
      • rpastuszak 1 hour ago
        Yeah, although, the word “just” is doing a lot of work here.
      • pluc 1 hour ago
        I hope you're aware AI vendors are running the exact same playbook these days. Don't want AI? Fuck you here's some AI on your toothbrush
      • askonomm 2 hours ago
        Well of course I wouldn't expect corporations to know what ethics or human decency is even if it stared them straight into the eyes, but I would expect governments to establish laws and regulations such that the psychopaths wouldn't be able to abuse people to no end.
        • philipallstar 23 minutes ago
          Corporations need to deliver lots of value to their customers to get somewhere in the first place. If you want power it's much easier to become a politician and just blame corporations and spend the money they make and take the credit.
          • mitxela 2 minutes ago
            I don't think it's easy to become a politician. Only a certain number of slots are available.
        • yetihehe 1 hour ago
          Currently it looks more and more like goverment itself consists of a lot of psychopaths who want to abuse people. Like abusing people is the main reason people go into politics. And then voters select those who want to abuse the outgroup, but don't know that politicians consider everyone as underclass, therefore even their own voters are ripe for abuse.
          • ModernMech 14 minutes ago
            One of the most telling quotes of our political era is this one from 2019:

              “I voted for him, and he's the one who's doing this. I thought he was going to do good things. He's not hurting the people he needs to be hurting.”
            
            They voted for him to do “good things” where the expectation was he’d hurt the right people. This person stated it a little more plainly than most but I think this view explains the last 10 years or so.

            https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/1/8/18173678/tr...

      • eugenehizyyo 2 hours ago
        [dead]
    • wartywhoa23 5 minutes ago
      > It is absolutely wild to me how a corporation can be so toxic and abusive to its users and still be in business.

      There is a couple more wild things here:

      1) That there is an agenda, demand and total legal abetment from the top of the power/monetary hierarchy for such corporate policies

      2) That there is a horde of individual employees working to those ends without any shadow of doubt, often even vice signaling their intent to be the first to attain the figurative A-bomb or full-blown BB telescreen.

    • DrBazza 2 hours ago
      My pet peeve is changes in 'user agreements' for paid services that add increasing amounts of adverts and tracking, but if you decline, you can't use the service, but the service continues to charge you. For the service they're no longer supplying.

      Just the kind of thing that the EU could regulate if it chose. Decline -> Your subscription will be terminated, no further monies will be debut from your account, are you sure?

      • mitxela 0 minutes ago
        I expect this is already covered by existing regulations but the only enforcement avenue is a lawsuit. They know you won't sue them for $20.
      • rkuodys 1 hour ago
        I'm more interested in the cases where you buy your phone, for example, and after purchase you are asked to agree with terms and conditions. Money is paid already. If you do not agree, you cannot use the device. Worse still, if 2 days after thre is mandatory update that forces you to agree to new version. If you don't like them, you should be compensated for it, as it is hidden information from you as a buyer.
        • ishouldnotbutk8 56 minutes ago
          >Money is paid already. If you do not agree, you cannot use the device

          Well, you can always return the phone. For online purchases you have 14 days to return it just because (you don't need to provide a reason).

          • pseingatl 43 minutes ago
            Where in the UCC does it say that? There may be a State regulation or a company policy, but I don't recall anything in the UCC about a "free" 14 day return policy. I can return a used car, no questions asked, after 14 days? Good luck with that.
            • mopsi 24 minutes ago
              That's an European thing. Anything bought remotely (mail, phone or the internet) can be returned up to 14 days for a full refund.

              Some minor exclusions apply, eg hygiene products can't be returned after they've been opened.

              • rkuodys 17 minutes ago
                Well, not really. If you have unpacked the iphone - I'm pretty sure it's not gonna be easy to return even within the 14 day window. You can return unpacked though, which is not the point of what I'm saying. Also for the benefit of the argument, change 2 days to 15 and you end up at the same place- you cannot legally return the device, User agreement has changed in ways you don't accept and you are forced to use device, for which you have paid or accept loss and buy another device. Oh and also, you cannot change OS to the alternative one for which terms might be more acceptable to you. How is this not a subject of investigation- I don't know.
        • fc417fc802 1 hour ago
          I've always viewed those as entirely invalid, at least from the standpoint of the spirit of our various legal systems and cultures. I recognize that any "binding arbitration" bits are enforceable (and an injustice). But the rest of it? Literal make believe. I will do as I please with the hardware that I paid for, its firmware, and any software that it came with. I will actively aid and abet anyone who seeks to reverse engineer same, circumvent associated technical measures, or evade the law while doing so. And all of that is good and virtuous behavior that improves society as far as I'm concerned.

          In other words - go ahead and click "I agree" without reading it, then proceed to dump the firmware or whatever else it is that you want to do. You aren't lying or otherwise doing anything wrong. The legal system is just broken.

          The fact that such a legal reality has been permitted to reach this point has to be one of the clearest illustrations that western systems of government remain highly flawed despite all that they get right.

        • embedding-shape 1 hour ago
          Remove/changing functionality in a way that the original use case you had for the device, no longer applies, because of a forced software update or user agreement you have to accept, should let people return the hardware regardless of when it was purchased. Bananas that this is still legal for companies to do.
      • Someone 45 minutes ago
        > My pet peeve is changes in 'user agreements' for paid services that add increasing amounts of adverts and tracking, but if you decline, you can't use the service, but the service continues to charge you. For the service they're no longer supplying.

        > Just the kind of thing that the EU could regulate if it chose

        https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CEL...:

        “Where the contract provides that the digital content or digital service is to be supplied or made accessible to the consumer over a period of time, the trader may modify the digital content or digital service beyond what is necessary to maintain the digital content or digital service in conformity in accordance with Articles 7 and 8, if the following conditions are met:

        […]

        2. The consumer shall be entitled to terminate the contract if the modification negatively impacts the consumer's access to or use of the digital content or digital service, unless such negative impact is only minor. In that case, the consumer shall be entitled to terminate the contract free of charge within 30 days of the receipt of the information or of the time when the digital content or digital service has been modified by the trader, whichever is later.”

      • masfuerte 1 hour ago
        Does that need new law? The problem we have in the UK is that Trading Standards has been starved of funding for the last 16 years so they can't do their job. If they had funding I'm pretty sure they have the power to tackle this.
      • impossiblefork 1 hour ago
        This is why it would be so nice to have an EU that actually made law, instead of just handing over the right to oversee things to the commission.

        Imagine if we actually had real regulations, instead of these negotiated things. Then we could just sue and normal courts could handle it.

    • j117noai 51 minutes ago
      https://www.tomshardware.com/video-games/microsoft-patents-s...

      Patent: https://patents.justia.com/patent/20260260258

      The mic/camera aspect doesn’t appear on that patent, it seems to be from an abandoned Sony patent filing from 2006 https://patents.google.com/patent/US20070261077A1/en?oq=US20...

      • ForHackernews 49 minutes ago
        "Drink verification can to continue"
    • red_admiral 9 minutes ago
      I don't like this idea, but I do like to get my facts right. If it is the patent linked elsewhere on this page, then

        - I can't find the bit where they monitor you via camera and microphone. (I think the "track your eyes to make sure you don't look away during ads" is already patented for mobile, but has never been deployed as far as I know.)
        - "block" your game/program to show ads - I think "pause" would be a better word here, perhaps. That's how ad breaks/popups work, for example on youtube and on many mobile apps, even on the radio in some sense. Scummy? On mobile apps, probably. New? no.
        - The part being patented here is some kind of machine learning system to decide the optimal time(s) to show ads. 
        - Patent doesn't mean it's going to happen.
      
      Apart from "we inserted some ML into the ad pipeline" there's really nothing new that I can see here.
      • darkwater 5 minutes ago
        But it's still bad as fuck, deplorable, despicable and many others adjectives. And it doesn't change GP point, even if the patent sucks at being a patent.
    • MonkeyClub 2 hours ago
      Black Mirror has unwittingly been offering a lot of nice, horrible ideas.
    • artisinal 2 hours ago
      Error! Please drink a verification can.
    • philipallstar 29 minutes ago
      > It is absolutely wild to me how a corporation can be so toxic and abusive to its users and still be in business.

      It's just a patent.

    • StLCylone 1 hour ago
      I feel compelled to mention Oracle at this point. Isnt their entire business model suing their customers?
    • llm_nerd 1 minute ago
      > Microsoft just recently made a new patent

      Microsoft has done a lot of super shady things, and they are domiciled in the a hyper-corrupt, lawless threat to humanity (one that elects quite possibly the stupidest human alive -- a rapist abomination halfwit clown -- to the highest office), however people do make far too much of the patent thing.

      A lot of firms reward groups and employees that get granted patents. It doesn't actually matter if you're spitballing the most absurd nonsense that no one ever asked for and is nowhere on the product map, someone writes the application and gives it a shot.

      In this case the patent is held by Microsoft's "Microsoft Technology Licensing LLC", which is their "patent extortion" racket. So they literally wrote this hoping to catch someone doing something found in a single claim so that they can use the legal system to rob from people.

    • fps-hero 1 hour ago
      You can patent a black mirror episode?
    • latexr 1 hour ago
      In addition to being the plot of a Black Mirror Episode¹, Sony also owns a similar patent².

      I wasn’t aware of the Microsoft patent but was able to find it³. It was published less than a month ago.

      ¹ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifteen_Million_Merits

      ² https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/sony-patent-mcdonalds/

      ³ https://image-ppubs.uspto.gov/dirsearch-public/print/downloa...

    • 21asdffdsa12 1 hour ago
      I make dystopian adds for my game- and one of them is a company called MacroSoft, which has a product that makes you sing add jingles to measure "engagement" performance before opening a program on its operating System (called BARs). Its really insane, how my dystopian crap regularly gets overtaken by reality.
    • hn_submit 1 hour ago
      This makes me happy. The more enshittification the sooner the first pillar of Big Tech will fall down.

      Meta and Google will follow soon after.

      P.S.: just because they take a patent on something doesn't mean they will actually use it.

      • askonomm 54 minutes ago
        > just because they take a patent on something doesn't mean they will actually use it.

        That's true, of course, but the fact that there are people in the company thinking like that to begin with, enough to think it's worth patenting such anti-human stuff, is plenty enough for me to never want anything to do with them.

    • bell-cot 23 minutes ago
      > It is absolutely wild to me how a corporation can be so toxic and abusive to its users and still be in business.

      Here's a (bit dated) list of the US companies which rake in the most bucks:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_companies_in_t...

      Looking at the 13 which rank higher than Microsoft - how many would you describe as treating their users/customers well?

      Theory:

      Treating your customers well is part of one strategy for corporate growth and profit. There are other strategies, which also can work very well - and don't require all the hassles and expense and non-evil of treating your customers well. Naturally, Capitalist propaganda stresses that first strategy, and doesn't talk so much about the others.

    • aaron695 52 minutes ago
      [dead]
  • hashar 1 hour ago
    France government has announced NixOS based systems some months ago:

    - https://github.com/cloud-gouv/securix a hardened/secured os

    - https://github.com/cloud-gouv/bureautix-example an example to use securix to build an office deployment (with some packages https://github.com/cloud-gouv/bureautix-example/blob/main/co... )

    • nxobject 40 minutes ago
      I’m glad multiple European agencies are giving this a whack - hopefully we’ll end up with a synthesis of the best aspects.
    • pranxxter 1 hour ago
      [flagged]
      • kthartic 1 hour ago
        Does it? The EU isn't a single country like the US - it's a partnership of 27 separate countries.

        If one country in the UN adopted some new OS, we wouldn't expect every other country (incl the US) to adopt it too.

        • pranxxter 59 minutes ago
          That's an accurate description of the status quo, but it's also a good example of massive inefficiencies in the EU.

          FWIW, I'm not saying that I would expect the EU to do a better job than the Dutch government. Likely quite the opposite. But it's frustrating as passionate European... that these problems aren't tackled on a union level. You'd think that's their job? The EU will never compete if it stays a loose partnership of 27 countries, and if it can't even get France, Germany, and the Netherlands to work on this together instead of running 3 separate projects...

      • innocent_name 1 hour ago
        NixOS is toxic and we all know it, hence the decision. Just show us the last attempts of govt. structures trying to be nice towards nix.
      • stef25 1 hour ago
        > it says a lot about the EU that every government tries to reinvent the same operating system

        Yeah what could possibly go wrong

  • ourmandave 1 minute ago
    As long as it has a built-in "VBScript like" lang, they'll be fine.

    Are they going with Copilot for Dutchies or Kaaskoppen.NET?

  • solarkraft 3 hours ago
    Awesome! I believe NixOS is perfect for systems you just want to work and track reproducibly, like appliances (which a lot of server software is supposed to be). I’m glad people smarter than me are actually able to realize its advantages =)

    In the same space, also check out openDesk initiated by the German Government (https://www.opendesk.eu/en) and La Suite by the French one (https://lasuite.numerique.gouv.fr/).

    AFAIK, there has been some collaboration with the German government on La Suite, not sure about the others.

    • skohan 39 minutes ago
      I recently got my feet wet with Nix for the purpose of agent sandboxing, and it's a really great concept!

      The issue I have run into is that for running llama.cpp, which is a very actively developed bleeding-edge software, it seems like experimenting with different versions/configs/patches etc. was fighting with the Nix philosophy of immutable software, so I ended up just managing it outside of nix.

      But this could be user-error, I've only spent a couple of weeks with it.

      • fsiefken 1 minute ago
        one can use direnv, nix-direnv and flake.nix to get an immutable and reproducible build toolchain protected from nix garbage collection, while keeping the llama.cpp branches and/or compiled binaries mutable on the local filesystem for fast iteration
    • mastermage 2 hours ago
      This realy would be a great way to foster collaboration within the EU. To create an own independant Ecosystem outside of the microsoft world.
  • ricardobeat 2 hours ago
    A note to the developers in the project, if anyone is reading: your repositories are in violation of the new Codeberg policy that forbids AI-generated code [1].

    [1] https://blog.codeberg.org/protecting-our-floss-commons-from-...

    • lucideer 2 hours ago
      It's self-hosted on https://code.overheid.nl/ & they mirror a subset of it on Codeberg.

      That might still be in violation but I would imagine it's low on Codeberg's radar since they're not making primary contributions there (& if I were DAWO I'd also be interested in limiting direct community agentic contrib).

      • karel-3d 1 hour ago
        They have "migrated to codeberg" which is written in the repo itself.

        However Codeberg actual "fuzzy" policy is less strict than "no LLM used ever".

    • KomoD 2 hours ago
      And Codeberg also blocks real people from accessing it, for who knows what reason. I just get "Access denied." with no more info.

      But they do let me visit blog.codeberg.org

      • sevenzero 2 hours ago
        Had that issue with HTTP accessed repo, switching to SSH solved it for me.
    • gagik_co 2 hours ago
      It’d make the most sense for the Dutch government (or DAWO) to have their own Forgejo instance if the goal is data sovereignty.

      edit: looks like this was originally the case and then they moved?

      • cornedor 2 hours ago
        They use both. https://code.overheid.nl/MinBZK?q=dawo&sort=alphabetically as the official source, and https://codeberg.org/DAWO for the community parts.
      • utopiah 2 hours ago
        clearly shows the need for federated forges, where you get to decide on your own rules but you still benefit from interacting with a broader set of collaborators.
        • amiga386 2 hours ago
          That's likely to end up Balkanized like the fediverse, where every instance has a list of other instances they refuse to federate with, often because politics or petty drama. Though to be fair to the fediverse, sometimes it's because those other instances are full of child porn and most people just don't want to see that.

          It amuses me that Mastodon Central uses corpo-friendly labels for the sites they won't federate with, e.g. (https://mastodon.social/about)

              tsundere.love   Suspended (Hate speech)
              you**.**ve      Suspended (Inappropriate content)
          
          Whereas the more free-wheeling sites, like the ones Mastodon Central blocks, tell it exactly how it is: (https://tsundere.love/about)

              nadeko.pw      CP
              mk.fedcast.ch  Spam
              youjo.love     hosts at least one admitted pedo
          • fc417fc802 1 hour ago
            A lot of such issues could likely be resolved by a better thought out protocol. There are certainly plenty of self righteous people who would refuse to federate purely on principle but more typically the issue is simply that one does not wish to be exposed to or traffic in any way the content in question. A well thought out self categorization system could largely address that need - you'd only need to refuse to peer with those who failed to apply it. AI also makes any such effort easier than ever.
          • Akronymus 57 minutes ago
            weirdly enough that reminds me of wattpad and ao3, where wattpad uses much nicer sounding terms while ao3 uses as accurate terms as possible. (which makes ao3 seem more "degenerate")
        • poulpy123 2 hours ago
          That's a recipe for drama as shown with mastodon when they got publicity few years ago
        • embedding-shape 2 hours ago
          Yeah, waiting for this too, feels like the final piece of the puzzle. Tracking issue from Codeberg + more general information about the effort around the the ecosystem:

          - https://codeberg.org/forgejo/forgejo/issues/59 ("[FEAT] implement federation")

          - https://forgefed.org/

          • athrowaway3z 2 hours ago
            Final piece of what puzzle?

            We can do big federated/distributed development with git at the project level. See the linux kernel.

            If the goal is fancy UI then there are alternatives.

            If the goal is to do a big multi-git with cross repo issue tracker, then that implies either:

            - you're a public site for random repos like codeberg

            - you're a special purpose forge and identity management is a big issue you want full control over.

            IMO - For this to work, they should go with the latter and not try to offload identity into some federated scheme.

    • NoahZuniga 2 hours ago
      Their instance is self hosted right, so this doesn't apply I think.
    • schnebbau 2 hours ago
      Codeberg are going to have issues in the future when all code is AI generated (except for artisanal code of course, written for the love of the craft but not to achieve anything of merit).
      • Thanemate 2 hours ago
        >but not to achieve anything of merit

        Educating oneself to provide better quality of work still requires writing code by hand, and by extend is an achievement of merit.

      • max_streese 2 hours ago
        Assuming writing code by hand is slower (which I agree with), why can't it still have merit compared to code written via llm harness?
        • schnebbau 2 hours ago
          Because no one is going to hire developers who write code by hand, apart from a few niches. For the same reason that no one hires a courier who delivers by horse anymore, or a miller who uses windmills to grind their grain, or a cooper who continues to use wooden staves and iron hoops instead of forming plastic or metal containers, or...
          • fc417fc802 1 hour ago
            > or a miller who uses windmills to grind their grain,

            Huh. For all the "traditional", "organic", "hand crafted", and other "things" I've encountered that isn't one of them. I wonder why no one is advertising fair trade hydropower stone ground organic flour?

            • tmtvl 40 minutes ago
              Because people generally don't like having bits of millstone in their flour.
          • applfanboysbgon 2 hours ago
            Yeah yeah, except LLM code is absolute dogshit and is not on a trajectory to ever not be dogshit.
      • applfanboysbgon 2 hours ago
        Policies are enacted for current reality, not fantasy futures. If your magical fantasy becomes reality (it won't), they can just... change their policy. Of course, you aren't thinking about practical effects of policies on platforms, only on how it's an insult to your LLM-bro way of life.
        • schnebbau 2 hours ago
          > If your magical fantasy becomes reality (it won't)

          Keep huffing that copium my friend. I've set an alarm to follow up here in a couple of years.

          • applfanboysbgon 2 hours ago
            Sure. You can come gloat about how you're unemployed because nobody needs a prompt monkey when they can just prompt the LLM to produce dogshit code themselves.
            • schnebbau 1 hour ago
              I climbed out of the code trenches years ago - I have multiple small companies, I'll be fine.

              And yes, they both have moats that will take AI at least 5 years to erode, at which point I'll just retire.

              Regarding the dog shit code comment: this is the problem with your whole line of thinking. Customers don't care if the code is dog shit. They care if they get value from the product.

              As I mentioned, there will still be some demand for devs who code by hand, similar to how theres still demand for blacksmiths who make ornamental weapons.

              • applfanboysbgon 1 hour ago
                Dogshit code doesn't give customers value from the product. You can get away with enshittifying your code/product if you already have an iron grip on the market and network effects make it impossible to escape, eg. Windows/appleOS/Android, Youtube, Facebook, Twitter, Discord, etc. At that point, you're relying on the inertia of community lock-in to replace product quality. However, this strategy does not work if you aren't a FAANG-scale monopolist. If your code and product is dogshit, you will never get off the ground. You need not only a better product but an overwhelmingly superior product to the competition to defeat inertia. And we see this playing out in reality: there are no vibecoded software disrupting the market. At most vibecoded software is carving out a new MLM-style pyramid of vibecoding tools, but it is not replacing hand-crafted software.
                • schnebbau 1 hour ago
                  This is just wishful thinking.

                  Building the product was never the hard part. Getting it in front of people is. That will continue to be true, except the build stage will be even easier.

                  • andersonpico 21 minutes ago
                    > Building the product was never the hard part

                    this is an absolutely insane take

    • graemep 2 hours ago
      Is it on Codeberg? I looked self-hosted to me.
      • KomoD 2 hours ago
        https://code.overheid.nl/MinBZK/DAWO-NixOS says:

        > DAWO Core has moved from https://code.overheid.nl to Codeberg to facilitate community collaboration.

        • galumptuous 2 hours ago
          Does this mean European governments have or will have an alternative(s) to GitHub as well?
          • lucideer 1 hour ago
            Forgejo (the Codeberg-maintained Gitea fork) is essentially becoming an EU-based community of familiar compatible alternatives to GitHub.

            It's not quite a federated/decentralised platform in the traditional sense, but the decentralised nature of Git makes it a close enough equivalent, & the fact they're built upon a shared platform makes them very easy to navigate. So setting up public instances for each government or org makes a lot of sense.

            Codeberg even maintains a list of alternative pubic Forgejo instances[0], some of which are explicitly pro-AI.

            [0] https://codeberg.org/forgejo-contrib/delightful-forgejo#publ...

    • rvz 2 hours ago
      I predict that Codeberg will soon realize that they have no choice but to loosen and allow AI generated code.

      There is no point in being on the extreme end around banning all code generated by AI.

      Regardless, there is AI generated code in many repositories on Codeberg anyway.

      • lucideer 1 hour ago
        I've seen so much commentary on the apparent strictness & extreme nature of Codeberg's approach & no actual examples of it.

        They have a strict policy (which many have rightly pointed out is impossible to fully enforce), & their "enforcement" has mostly relied on good faith contributions to date. They're also accounting for the fact the ToS change came without advance notice for many of their users who were already making active use of agents, hence there remains many AI repos (I have yet to hear of any removals).

        To me that seems like the best approach one can hope for - a lax policy is a slippery slope (presuming dissuading AI contrib is your goal), & wouldn't satisfy their legal concerns (hosting code of questionable copyright status), & strict enforcement isn't viable in any case (especially at their scale), so this seems to me to be the best compromise.

      • teekert 2 hours ago
        It may be more a measure against explosive growth than being anti-AI in principle.
      • tcfhgj 1 hour ago
        AI generated code is allowed on Codeberg, but not if it's mostly ai generated
      • TiredOfLife 30 minutes ago
        People who act out of ideology very very rarely change their opinions.
    • streetfighter64 2 hours ago
      Fair note, but I'd avoid the cheap shot "more open". You'll just bring up the old flame wars about whether the MIT-style or GNU-style licenses are more open.

      The same applies here, is it really "more open" to allow corporations to profit by removing the openness of your work?

      • ricardobeat 2 hours ago
        Point taken, trimmed that. I do take issue with their position but not the place to start a new discussion.
    • embedding-shape 2 hours ago
      Did you actually read through that post you linked? You realize not every project that was ever touched by a LLM is being thrown off? Read the "Some early, but informal guidelines" particularly, as you've seemingly missed that.

      They're targeting slop and essentially spam, not everything that could possibly have been built by LLMs.

      • ricardobeat 2 hours ago
        Quoting from the post:

            > If you see yourself on this list, you don't need to move right away, but
            there might be other places that better fit your needs:
        
            - Projects written and maintained with heavy use of LLMs
        
        All of the commits I browsed here seem to be LLM-assisted, so these projects are in this category. The policy being fuzzy is in itself a problem - "likely to be tolerated" is not a great policy to have your entire government depend on.

        Personally, the refusal on "Projects heavily tied to the LLM ecosystem, e.g. LLM-written tools to ease LLM usage" is enough reason, as that's a good chunk of what I've been working on.

        • rhamzeh 2 hours ago
          > "enough reason for me to move out"

          And that's not a bad thing. That's why they are communicating, so if you feel that is you and you're uncomfortable about it, you can move out and it's a win win.

          Not everything should service all of us, especially not the smaller services. It's OK for places to have their own rules and them being upfront about this is a *good* thing.

        • embedding-shape 1 hour ago
          > The policy being fuzzy is in itself a problem

          No, the policy being fuzzy is a feature, because they're not 100% against all LLM usage, they're against slop and AI-spam, which is what they're trying to combat.

          Laws are fuzzy, and we're doing mostly fine with this, of course there are edge-cases. But that's exactly why laws are fuzzy in the first place.

          If you have a "automated software factory" or whatever the vibe-coders are up to today, then yes, Codeberg is probably not for you. But if you sit with a agent TUI in one tab, review things closely and don't just "throw code over the wall" without reviewing it, you have nothing to worry about with hosting code on Codeberg.

      • wafflemaker 2 hours ago
        Not OP, but I stand corrected. Thought it was 100% no generated code. Now I know better, thanks! Looks like codeberg aren't as mad as I thought.
    • docheinestages 2 hours ago
      Codeberg is trying to solve the right problem with the wrong solution. But hey, it's democratic!
      • lucideer 2 hours ago
        I like Codeberg's solution (hard written policy, light good-faith based enforcement), what would you suggest as a better solution?
        • rhplus 57 minutes ago
          Their contention seems mainly focused on the heavy resource use of AI tooling.

          They run a service: they could impose limits on the number of submissions, builds, branches, scans, etc, and give additional usage credits to the large community projects they want to encourage.

          • lucideer 0 minutes ago
            That & the legal aspects of hosting code of questionable copyright.

            The LLM revolution has proven that if you have enough institutional investors, the Berne Convention doesn't apply to you, but it's sofar unclear whether that exemption from international law extends to small EU-based non-profits.

  • carlsborg 9 minutes ago
    I hope someone is security scanning all those NixOS provider modules.

    I wonder if Claude could go from NixOS spec to actual config without the Nixos provider. The provider becomes a natural language description and some links to the docs/source code and then a verifier is all you need.

  • frzen 59 minutes ago
    Do we even need to have a suite of tools for users to create spreadsheets, paste images into them, save them as a PDF, download to their local machine, sync to sharepoint, change permissions to include everyone in the entire universe to be able to see the file, email the link to another human in the company who opens it, uses a PDF editor to copy paste it back into excel, barely scratch the surface of tools within Excel to sum a column, reply back in a password protected word doc saying looks good to me.

    I would much prefer to be using something like NixOS and not be depending on Microsoft etc but I can't imagine what the stack will look like if we don't revolutionise the work. Sensitivity labels, DLP, etc. are relics of people treating information on computers as if they are physical documents, and I can't see how I will have been paying for BP/E3/E5 licenses for users and then suddenly start to argue we don't need those features anymore after spending so long insisting users need to use them.

  • fbn79 1 hour ago
    The highest problem is the office suite. If you think Libreoffice/Collabora can replace Microsoft 365 without friction the project could be a success. Honestly I do not think so as of today.
    • IlikeMadison 30 minutes ago
      Completely agree. Before that I would have add the Adobe Suite as well for a lot of people but it's less a problem now fortunately.
  • vanschelven 2 hours ago
    For a second I was worried that the actual code behind this was dead in the water ("3 months ago") but it's just one more click away:

    https://code.overheid.nl/MinBZK/DAWO-NixOS

  • armcat 7 minutes ago
    The link doesn't work for me.
  • ritzaco 2 hours ago
    Workplace is such a confusing overloaded term.

    They also have "Mijn Bureau" which I tried out and wrote about here [0] which is the MS Office alternative.

    I take it this is the layer below that, an operating system?

    But it all looks quite fragmented still from what I can see, especially now that it's also split across GitHub and CodeBerg as well as being split across different organizations, and trying to collaborate with other efforts by other European countries while still remaining distinct.

    [0] https://techstackups.com/articles/is-it-feasible-to-self-hos...

    [1] https://github.com/MinBZK/mijn-bureau-infra

    [2] https://code.overheid.nl/MinBZK/DAWO/src/branch/main/compone...

  • pards 1 hour ago
    > What DAWO stands for

    > DAWO brings public values and technology together. The community pursues five primary goals.

    But fails to state what the letters in D.A.W.O. stand for

  • koe123 40 minutes ago
    FINALLY. I have been seeing other projects based on eg Fedora and I just think: why. Declarative, open source, and reproducible is the future.
  • bialyalibaba 2 hours ago
    Nixpkgs should reduce package count. Waiting 2 days for unbound CVE patch merge is unbearable.
    • amarshall 15 minutes ago
      Use nixos-unstable-small branch or backport the change and build yourself.
    • pasc1878 1 hour ago
      They could improve that speed if they had more hardware to do the needed rebuilds.

      I hope you are paying them something.

    • Diti 52 minutes ago
      Ask your favorite LLM to write an overlay for whichever package you need patches applied for before they hit Nixpkgs.
    • bouk 2 hours ago
      You don't have to wait? You just have to compile matter yourself
  • parlortricks 2 hours ago
    This is great, would love to understand why Nix over Lix or Guix.
    • TheFuzzball 1 hour ago
      1. You can run NixOS with Lix (I do)

      2. Because Guix is less mature and more, ehm, opinionated, than *ix + nixpkgs

      • anthk 39 minutes ago
        Guix users can just add the Fearware Guix channel which is just the nonfree firmware and blobbed vanilla Linux kernel, no propietary software it's added, just the necessary firmware to run your hardware (3D Radeon support, Nouveau+reclocking, some audio chipsets, and most of non-ant9k WiFi cards). That's it.
  • anthk 43 minutes ago
    Guix has reproducibility. Instead of Nonguix, which bundles tons of propietary software, they can just add the Fearware repo, which just has the tainted non-free vanilla Linux kernel with closed blobs and firmware, just enough to function your machine well (especially with 3D support for Radeon cards and wireless devices) and nothing more.
  • KomoD 2 hours ago
    Site doesn't work for me.

    www.dawo.community took too long to respond.

    • ndom91 2 hours ago
      Are you in the US? Hehe
      • KomoD 1 hour ago
        No, Sweden.
  • mg794613 32 minutes ago
    Thanks Trump, Europe was never this united before.

    Not by your choosing, but still.

  • sneak 1 hour ago
    I’m really curious to see what the answer for MDM and Group Policy is on Linux. The SSO part is mostly figured out, but the reason places use Windows is often manageability.

    Is there anyone doing MDM or policy enforcement on Linux other than Google Workspace + chromebooks?

    • ndriscoll 3 minutes ago
      It's Nix so you just push the generation to the device. It's probably the easiest possible way to do device management.
  • einpoklum 2 hours ago
    What is it that they need/add above NixOS defaults?
    • flippingheck 2 hours ago
      They likely offer at least some of:

      * typical deployments

      * training/consulting

      * compliance with Ditch regulations

      * shared infrastructure for custom builds, and CVEs

  • London-443 2 hours ago
    [flagged]
  • Yizahi 1 hour ago
    The same Dutch who voted on the eAIDS... ahem, sorry, eIDAS and ADDW car spyware? I'm not particularly excited about our new benevolent OS.
    • pastage 1 hour ago
      eIDAS is federated login between countries in EU. What is wrong with that?
  • jimnotgym 2 hours ago
    To save anyone else I asked Claude

    "NixOS is a Linux distribution where your whole system is defined in one configuration file."

    I didn't get that from looking at their website...

    • vustagc 2 hours ago
      • jimnotgym 1 hour ago
        Well what I wrote was not on the homepage of nixos.com, or obvious after a few clicks. Claude summarised it very nicely. I now know I don't need NixOS.

        Perhaps the real meatheads are the ones who spam threads with anti-ai memes, rather than looking at the utility of what the ai provided?

        • bigfishrunning 1 hour ago
          The nix website doesn't have the sentence that Claude gave you above, but it does describe the declarative approach to package management that nix is known for. "Having a single config file" doesn't really even describe what makes nix unique. Perhaps you should have read the website instead of skimming and asking Claude.
        • max-privatevoid 1 hour ago
          That's the wrong domain...
    • sevenzero 2 hours ago
      NixOS is also unnecessarily complicated and it's easy for someone that doesn't want to read 1000 pages of documentation to brick your system.

      Probably has its uses, tried it twice myself and both times were a lot of struggling.

      For me even Arch was easier to configure than Nix.

      • j16sdiz 34 minutes ago
        I would image in corporate / government deployment, declarative configuration is more efficient.

        When you have that many users, you don't really configure individual system, you deploy up some per-configured module or setup.

        Repeatable builds also make troubleshooting lots easier - and you can hand those task to front-tier helpdesk staffs.

      • TitaRusell 2 hours ago
        The history of the Netherlands is all about making things unnecessarily complicated.

        When lesser nations rally around the flag and elect dictators we have meetings and consultations.

        • brnt 1 hour ago
          Elk nadeel heb se voordeel.
        • Ylpertnodi 1 hour ago
          Literally.
      • teekert 2 hours ago
        That's the nice part, as an admin you are familiar with the complexity and use it for good. As a user, you never have to see it. (And you can even have some freedom for installing apps using flatpack/snap if needed.)

        How would you role out the same config to thousands of Arch systems? Sure Valve does it, but I still think that is a "bolted on top" solution. Bootc could be another option though, but Nix solves reproducibility more elegantly, imho. Nix went back and asked "how can this be done better", where many modern solutions took what was already there.

      • dminik 2 hours ago
        Each nixos rebuild creates a snapshot. While I also eventually moved off of nixos, I've yet to get a system that was as stable as it.
      • chpatrick 2 hours ago
        The problem with Arch is that configuration is by hand so you have to do it every time. With Nix you configure it once and then you can deploy it anywhere. Also it's pretty much impossible to break since the system is immutable and you can boot to a different revision any time.
        • sevenzero 2 hours ago
          I managed to brick my revisions/snapshots before
          • chpatrick 2 hours ago
            Sure you can make a bad one, but you can always switch to a different one.
      • jimnotgym 1 hour ago
        I can imagine. Those are often the sort of projects that struggle to put a one line description of what they are on their homepage. I inferred it was an OS, inferred it was Unix adjacent...but no answer on the rest. It could have been BSD or open Solaris based for all I could tell.
      • tcfhgj 1 hour ago
        So far I have broken every Linux distro I used except NixOS.

        And if I were to break it, i could just reboot into the previous system snapshot.

        And I haven't read 1000 pages of docs - from my experience id doubt it even has that many docs.

      • rantingdemon 2 hours ago
        Yeah I also wonder about going for NixOS for this. For servers maybe, but for user focussed desktops? The support requirements will be complicated.
    • russfink 2 hours ago
      Hopefully the config is a little more descriptive than their README.md
    • aaron695 2 hours ago
      [dead]